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Palmdale Power Plant produces less pollution that Lancaster’s big box centers

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(City of Palmdale Power Plant, One Mile Buffer)
(City of Palmdale Power Plant, One Mile Buffer)

Lancaster city officials remain opposed to the Palmdale Power Plant because it could produce 546 tons of pollutants every year, however, the proposed shopping centers approved by the city of Lancaster will actual produce more pollutants than the power plant, according to Palmdale City officials. The numbers were detailed in a press release issued Monday as part of Palmdale’s  “Fact vs. Fiction” series. Read it below:

Fact vs. Fiction, Part 6 – Palmdale Power Plant produces less emissions than Lancaster’s big box centers across from Quartz Hill High School, yet the Parris/Crist campaign of lies continues by scaring children & parents

PALMDALE – Environmental Impact Reports (EIRs) reveal that the proposed shopping centers which the City of Lancaster approved to be built directly across the street from Quartz Hill High School will produce more emissions than the proposed Palmdale Power Plant.

The Environmental Impact Reports (EIRs) for both the Lane Ranch Towne Center Project and the Quartz Hill Commons Project show that the total amount of emission tonnage exceeds the amount that will be generated by the Palmdale Power Plant by more than 25 tons. The EIRs reveal that the two shopping centers, which are across the street from Quartz Hill High School and its athletic fields, will create a total of 571.28 tons of emissions per year. (Sources: The Commons at Quartz Hill Draft Environmental Impact Report, IV. D. Air Quality, Page IV-D-25; and Lane Ranch Town Center Draft Environmental Impact Report, IV. D. Air Quality, Page IV-D-25. View it here.) [View the full reports here.]

The Palmdale Power Plant is permitted for up to 547 tons of emissions a year, which is nearly 25 tons less than the proposed Lancaster shopping centers.

“That 547 number is a combination of worse-case scenarios,” said Palmdale’s Public Works Director Mike Mischel. “When the California Energy Commission calculates the amount of emissions, they use scenarios such as the plant running 24/7-365 days a year, or with hundreds of ‘cold starts,’ much like a person would be starting and stopping their car engine then taking the highest number of emissions for each scenario.  The power plant will actually produce fewer emissions than indicated as none of these scenarios should happen,” Mischel said.

“Furthermore the Palmdale Power Plant project is purchasing Emission Reduction Credits at a ratio of at least 1:3 to 1, which means it is taking more emissions out of our air than it is putting in,” Mischel said. “That is how the California Energy Commission and United States Environmental Protection Agency are able to clean our air while providing reliable sources of energy.”

“Everyone knows that shopping centers are not gross polluters,” said Palmdale Mayor Jim Ledford. “I think it’s important that whenever you are providing technical data to the public that you put that data in the proper perspective. Shopping centers are a [part] of our everyday life and these numbers just prove how clean the Palmdale Power Plant is going to be. It shows how advanced and efficient the technology is, and it’s something we can all be very proud of.”

Antelope Valley Air Quality Management District Board Chair and Lancaster Vice Mayor Marvin Crist has continued his campaign of lies, most recently by targeting school children and parents in the Lancaster School District with letters, fliers and public presentations with false claims. In the past, Lancaster officials including Crist and R. Rex Parris have claimed that the power plant would kill children, create a six mile high cloud of pollution that floats over schools and soccer fields, and cause job losses at Air Force Plant 42—all of which are completely false with no foundation in reality.

In addition, the City of Lancaster is attempting to coerce the Lancaster School District into signing a resolution to oppose the power plant.

“You have to ask the City of Lancaster if they’re so concerned about the effects of emissions on schoolchildren, why did they approve two new shopping centers directly across the street from Quartz Hill High School?” asked Palmdale’s Communications Manager John Mlynar. “Either the City of Lancaster is disingenuous about its health ‘concerns’ regarding the Palmdale Power Plant, or, using Crist’s words, they are intentionally trying to kill Quartz Hill High School students by allowing such ‘gross polluters’ to operate next to the high school.”

“The Palmdale Power Plant is going to have an enormous positive impact on the entire Antelope Valley,” said Ledford. “In addition to creating up to 800 construction jobs for up to 3 years, there will be 35 permanent jobs at the plant itself and dozens of support jobs stemming from the plant. Plus, it will infuse an estimated $5 million into the local economy each year, generate $6 million dollars a year in taxes for the County of Los Angeles, provide for 4-6 miles of road paving, pay for a $20 million dollar reclaimed water interconnect between Palmdale and Lancaster, help California reduce its greenhouse gas emissions, and provide a stable source of clean reliable energy for decades. I could not be more proud to support a power plant that will help lead California forward and put us on the track to a more sustainable energy future.”

About the Fact/Fiction PR Series:

In an attempt to dispel continuous misinformation from external sources, the City of Palmdale has created a fact or fiction series of press releases. The goal of this series is to clarify any false statements or distortions of the truth.

For more information on the Palmdale Power Plant, visit www.energy.ca.gov/sitingcases/palmdale.

Previous related stories:

Public forums on proposed Palmdale Power Plant

Palmdale Power Plant obtains transfer emission reduction credits

BizFed urges AVAQMD Board to support Palmdale Power Plant

VIDEO: Lancaster opposition continues Palmdale Power Plant

Palmdale Power Plant drawing support from elected officials, community leaders

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Filed Under: Lancaster, Palmdale, Politics

45 comments for "Palmdale Power Plant produces less pollution that Lancaster’s big box centers"

  1. Take it to a Vote of the People!!!! Put the Power Plant and Walmart on the Ballot, let the people decide once and for ALL!!!! Seem’s like the only logical thing to do, because lets face it, our local government is worse then Congress right now!

    • No, my well paid blogging friend, only YOUR local government in Lancaster is worse than Congress right now. Palmdale’s government doesn’t have your problems of corruption, nepotism, unconstitutionalities, undue influences, lies, etc., etc.

      Palmdale does not need your carpetbagging wannabe king Wrecks trying to bully his way into Palmdale’s governmental functions.

    • Jason Zink. We did take a vote ‘of the people’ this month. Mayor Ledford was an advocate for the Palmdale Power Plant and he won by around 63% of the votes. Lynn Minidis said “How would you like a power plant in your backyard?” or something like that and lost big time.

      So, why can’t you accept that? Why? Why do you continue ranting like a crazy person?

      A vote on the Walmart would be questionable since only Lancaster voters could vote and the impact and opposition is by Quartz Hill residents who can’t vote on it.

      So, your comment is moot and we don’t have to give it any consideration.

      • The Public does not know about all the mis-leading and behind closed doors that has gone on in Palmdale and I guess you don’t either. If they did know the Election would be different results. It will come out eventually trust me.

        Hint: Land?

        • So tell us, ‘Jason Zink’, about all of these allegations that you are making against unnamed officials in the Palmdale. Present your proof that they operate the same way as your buddies in Wrecksville. We are all well aware of such practices in Wrecksville as it shows blatantly in their actions and statements, but where does one find that in the actions and statements of the officials in Palmdale?

          Don’t worry. We’ll wait for you to consult with Parris and Crist before you answer with their lies. We all know who you are and why you are posting here, but please, do continue.

          • Yes, how does Jason Zink ‘know’ all this if no one else does. Does he work for the NSA?

            Or, is he psychic?

  2. Adam Chant. Google ‘Gish Gallop’. It describes the way you debate/argue regardless of the subject matter.

    I only asked you about your opposition to the proposed Walmart and Target based on how you’ve been campaigning against the Palmdale Power Plant. But, when the pollution numbers are greater for those 2 stores than the worst case scenario for the plant, you go off on tangents about the number jobs. The pollution is or isn’t harmful regardless of the number of jobs, isn’t it?

    Again, that the plant has passed its evaluations IN CALIFORNIA, a very strict state, and has been approved with conclusions that it will be very clean. They are the experts, not you, Parris or Crist who cherry pick some things and make up the rest.

    • Uh.. your comprehension of the “Gish Gallop” debating technique is as inept as your understanding of the Palmdale Power Plant and pollution.
      That only works in a real time discussion where the opposing party is unable to validate or corroborate the information being given at the time it is presented.
      There is no time factor here that would inhibit someone from actually researching the details of each issue presented to see if my observations are accurate or not.
      the Gish Gallop is a time based matter not a comprehension bases matter.. But if we want to coin a new debating technique called the “Chant Rant” then so be it.
      Basically the way that works is that I use my real name so I have some ‘skin in the game’ for my information and then I continue to provide both information and sources for that information to refute the half truths being provided by all parties.
      Then you and everyone else continues to use fake names and post additional half-truths while I refute them and wrap up previous points as compounded evidence against your position.

      Oh, and my favorite part.. rather than provide refuting evidence to my observations you continue to deflect, bring up new issues and (my favorite) point the finger and ‘tattle tale’ on your peers. “Lancaster makes more poopie.” Yes, we know. That’s why those of us who live within one mile of the proposed development oppose it. That doesn’t make it OK for Palmdale to make their own “poopie” less than 1 mile from my work..

      When in the history of man has something detrimental to our health been underestimated that resulted in findings being better than initially expected?
      Oil spills, Nuclear disasters, ground water contamination, smog, asthma, emphysema, bronchitis, valley fever, etc.
      So why then would we expect that the pollution (that according to the Obama Clean Air Act regulations for 2020 can be as much as 1100 tons of pollution a year for natural gas fueled power plants) from the Palmdale Power Plant is going to be as little as 547 tons/year?

      Because the EIR says so? Obama/EPA says it can be higher and the plan for regulating national pollution says it will in fact be one of the types of Plants that will be run more often. Both the POTUS and the EPA are saying that clean plants will be operated more often to help curb pollution. Google it!
      Why would the “cleanest plant ever approved” be run at anything less than what the maximum usage allowable is? There is only one reason and that would be due to a lack of carbon credits.. So the only thing preventing PPP from putting 1100 tons of pollution in the air 24/7-365 is the available carbon credits to do so. You can bet that as more dirty Plants close down that they will transfer carbon credits so that the “cleanest plant ever approved” can run more often.

      And to just broach on the Water issue for a minute.. since it’s raining so beautifully today..
      We have 300+ days of clean open skies in the Antelope Valley and very little rain. The water that we have is for the most part in a closed circuit.
      It comes out of the ground – goes to our homes – goes out our drains – goes to the reclamation facility – goes to the parks for irrigation and back into the ground.
      In the arid, hot and dry desert that circuit does not include a component of evaporation and precipitation to restore the water table.
      Yet the proposed PPP is going to use recycled water from the sewage system for the cooling towers. That means that the volume of water used that evaporates in the form of a steam cloud a couple hundred feet tall leaves our water table — spooky voice– ForEver!
      According to the City Of Palmdale website that’s 3,000 acre feet per year gone from our water table. And since we like to compare this to other things like shopping centers and residents; 3000 Acre/ft is equal to the average water usage of 12,000 homes or 41 Lane Ranch Towne Center Projects, except that the PPP water is not being recycled or returned to the water table. That Information can be obtained from the EIR for the Lane Ranch Towne Center Project.. I’m sure you are familiar with it at this point.

      • Much of the AV’s water comes from that aqueduct snaking around the valley.

        The water does not disappear forever. The Earth is a fairly closed system and eventually the water will arrive here again in the form of rain, probably after being peed out by a camel in Eygpt who got it from a rain cloud there provided by the cooling tower.

        Water treatment and pumping back to a dry well is the least healthy way to get our water table stable. I would rather it is used to water a lawn and that dry air wisk it away as evaporation.

        200 feet is not all that tall. About 20 stories. Still the same argument, how often will the environmental conditions be correct to actually create the plume of steam?

        Even at twice the output of pollution it will still be far cleaner than all the cars on a daily basis. Or during the winter, all the fireplaces. Or spring and fall burning piles.

        • Please back up your assertion that ‘much’ of AV’s water comes from the Aqueduct with actual numbers and how that allocation to the ‘District’ is based on external factors. Additionally what are the other two common sources of water for the district.?..
          Two of the three primary sources of water here is from ground water in the AV and the other is predicated on annual reserves in northern California.
          Exactly how does water evaporate in the desert and carried east by the winds get redeposited into any source of water we use in the future? I’ll concede the water matter if you can explain how it ends up back in the Sierra Nevada’s..
          If you can please let me know because we can take that information and use it to justify allocating more water to us from the Aqueduct since it’s already Palmdale’s water ..

      • Earth to Adam Chant. Earth to Adam Chant. It is not Lancaster’s water. Lancaster has its own supply of reclaimed water. Palmdale has every rough to put the resources it has paid for to good use. Electricity is something that is valued in Palmdale. There is plenty of recycled water available for Palmdale’s other needs. Earth to Adam Chant. Earth to Adam Chant. LANCASTER DOES NOT OWN THIS VALLEY DESPITE WHAT YOU AND THEY ON FERN STREET THINK. Deal with it. Just for the record, aside from the fact that power plants recover as much water as possible, evaporated water is not gone forever. Despite what is taught in Lancaster schools or on Fern Street.

      • Adam Chant. You throw so much spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks, it looks like the kitchen of an Italian restaurant. You do illustrate ‘Gish Gallop’ in a written discussion but you think you were so clever to limit it to real time debates. It also applies to you.

        Your debating style is a mismash of cherry picked ‘facts’ and conclusions drawn without including all the pertinent infomation.

        Your rant meanders so long, I expect it to wind up concluding that man walked with dinosaurs.

        You don’t know what ‘simple and elegant’ means. Read the Gettysburg Address to get a sense of it.

        If all your complaints were corrected you’d still complain. You begin with your conclustions and then scour the internet for only the evidence that supports it and dismiss any contradictory evidence.

        The experts have determined that the power plant is clean and poses no threats to the health of anyone. You are the not expert in this despite your illusions to the contrary.

        If your store is on the BLVD, how is Avenue M a mile from your work and the wind blows northeast from the site and not toward the BLVD?

        • Stop making sense William. Common sense and the capacity to understand what the experts have said do not resonate on Fern Street or the BLVD. Their world is a strange one where aviary noises and airplanes reduce crime, nepotism is a core value, insider deals the rule and not the exception, and no regard for the input if others. Only in Lancaster does burned gas coagulate and head directly north. A Twilight Zone episode has nothing on these clowns.

          • Wow! Question Authrority. You summed it up so well, I’m envious.

            Listening to Chant, Parris and Crist is like listening to ‘birther’ fanatics. No amount of evidence, documentation, research, proof, or anything else will sway them from their already settled opinions.

            If their opinons are proved incorrect, they merely change the the subject to estimated jobs or the distance that transmission lines have to run, water issues ,or other factors involved. If those numbers are debunked they talk about the money Palmdale spent which unless they live in Palmdale, shouldn’t concern them. And, they go on and on. Remember, it was the so-called pollution that kills kids on soccer fields that was the initial commplaint. Once the CEC said there was no health hazard, they moved on to create other issues.

            I’m sure you’ve seem similar so-called ‘debates’ over other issues where one side throws everything they can at the issue, made up or not and rebuttals with ‘facts; supplied by experts, are totally dismissed.

            Yeah, they think that the winds will blow the mile high plumes over to the soccer fiels and stay there because the winds stop there and don’t want to keep blowing further away. The wind is part of the Palmdale conspiracry.

  3. If the Palmdale leadership and citizens want this power plant as badly as they claim, why aren’t they proposing that it be built closer to the center of their city boundaries? how about between Ave’s P and Q.. and say… 20th and 25th Street East. Plenty of vacant land over there.

    Would it be that the pollution is too much for Palmdale residents to endure?

    Could be why they want the plant located practically on the doorstep of Lancaster, literally only 100′ away from Ave M (the city line boundary).

    What do Palmdale officials have to say about the estimated 30+ miles of power lines that will be need to be run East down Ave M, south down 50th East, then south-east to the power station off Angeles Forest highway…? A sight for sore eyes, naturally.

    I’m still on the fence about the project… But let’s be honest here… Mayor Ledford is NOT showing all of his cards face up… ;-)

  4. This is about Palmdale Citizens sticking up for what is right and not being taken advantage of by their leaders!

    Let us not forget all the lies that have been told to us by Ledford and all the public MONEY $$$$ that was used on this project that will not lower one palmdale citizens electric bill or benifit anyone…..well unless ur getting money for a kick-back, crooks don’t count as citizens anyway there just scum.

    Recall time, please don’t be fooled, clean house Palmdale and vote down this power plant!

      • LOLOLOLOLOL NO SH*T??? This guy is a PLANT from the solar farms to the NORTH? SMH I couldn’t make up the low class cheezyness of Lancaster and it’s leaders if I tried! And what’s this claim of Palmdale citizens banding together to fight the evil power plant? The only noise against it is coming from the Fern st gang. I heard Marvin said that the QH Walmart and Target centers would only release 4 tons of pollution a year. Now he’s denying Lancaster’s very own EIR’s. How is it these guys aren’t in jail?

        • I wonder why Rex is putting Crist out there as front man for this opposition. He’s not afraid to lie but he has Crist do it for him. If the plant is finally approved, I guess Crist will join Ron Smith under the bus.

  5. My guess is that Lancaster is fighting the power plant because it competes with all the Solar Farm $$$ coming in to the area.

  6. Since William personally stalked me on other stories to comment here I will just say this:
    We don’t want No Stink’n WalMart in our town of Quartz Hill…EVER.!.

    Having said that I in no way speak for or have ever implied that I speak on behalf of the City of Lancaster, The BLVD, WalMart, City of Palmdale, LASD or any other government agency public or private organization or school, school board or bus company, homeless person, or person with a home or brainless person. <- No one asked me to or implied or came to my business and ruffed me up to post that.. I just think it's funny considering all of the B.S. flying around these days.

    Let's just put everything into some perspective here for a second.
    -We're arguing about theoretical numbers and projects that may never happen-
    The EIR provides a limit based on the Clean Air Act requirements for how much pollution can be produced be a given location. In each case a maximum allowable limit is defined in the EIR and it's to be considered a worst case situation as Palmdale has pointed out.
    Now where it becomes real – dicey – is that once again rather than addressing the issue with solutions Palmdale decides to redirect the matter back as if a child is saying.. "Look he did it too!"
    Real F-ING mature people.. (Note: That my language and delivery is equally unprofessional and immature for ironic impact.){Note 2: The prior note is required to quality the irony making this note both redundant and ironically redundant}
    I digress.
    Assuming that both projects are built and both projects are producing a given volume of pollution we end up with extremely disproportionate results.

    If this is about pollution then the following can be observed:

    WalMart works very hard to become a carbon-neutral retailer and in dong so has continued to reduce pollution at their retailers by 25%-30% compared to 2005 numbers. They achieved this goal at existing retailers in 2009 and are reported to be capable of now building stores that cut greenhouse gas emissions by as much as 95%. These reductions are also supplemented with on site roof mounted solar systems and Bloom Energy Servers that use solid oxide fuel cell technology to convert natural gas into energy. Some reports go so far as to suggest that if all of the systems were operating at the same time at a WalMart store that it would actually be an energy producer and not a consumer. Walmart is making an honest effort to reduce greenhouse gas emissions within their corporation and because of that the EIR for the Lane/Walmart development grossly over estimates the pollution production.

    The Palmdale Power Plant is a power plant that makes energy and pollution. Energy goes in the power grid and pollution goes into the environment. There are proven systems available that would capture, store and even sell the pollution produced by the plant, but they are currently not being considered due to cost and lack of facilities for storage. The cost and storage are both debatable and can be overcome with known working engineering solutions.
    The 'worst case operation' of 24/7-365 for the Palmdale Power Plant is actually the real world usage of the power plant. Due to Clean Air Act rules that we know about today and are required to be met by 2020 this "cleanest power plant ever approved" will be required to be in operation 24/7-365. It's already a component of the plan to reduce stationary object emissions by 36% of 2005 levels by 2020. Coal and oil plants get Carbon Capture Systems AND are put on stand-by while clean natural gas plants operate more often to help reduce pollution.
    Due to the way that the Clean Air Act is going to be implemented and our reluctance to use Nuclear power the EIR for the Palmdale Power Plant under estimates the pollution production.

    If this is about job creation then the following can be observed:
    The Quartz Hill Lane Ranch project is expected to require 300-800 temporary jobs in construction, welding, engineering and misc facility employment for up to 3 years.
    Once completed it will be the home to at least 2 anchor retailers in WalMart and Target that each will maintain a workforce of well over 150 employees with as much as 75% of them full time with benefits and above minimum wage. Additionally there will be between 20 and 50 smaller retailers that will have between 1 and 15 employees for a conservative guess of 300-800 permanent employees.. The economic impact of this development is expected to be.. well you get the point…

    The Palmdale power Plant will employ .. (now it's) up to 800 people during construction and upon completion 35 permanent full time workers. I don't need to repeat the statistics they are listed in the press release above.

    • Amazing how Adam Chant knows the EIRs for the Walmart and Target projects are “grossly overestimated” but the EIR for the power plant is real world. Will we see you changing the slides for Marvin Crist tonight? What is in the water in Lancaster?

      • I’m sorry, but I was unable to get to the meeting before it started to turn the slides..
        Do we want to start talking about the water usage too?

        • Water? Another one from The Parris and Crist play book. The water comes from the recycled water plant in Palmdale. But I’m sure your masters believe it belongs to them like they think this whole Valley belongs to them. This may be hard for Lancasterarians to understand but there are other people and other cities and other agencies and other town councils and other school districts and other water districts that are part if the Valley. They have the right legally to operate just as much as anyone else. There is a big world out there beyond Fern St. and the BLVD. Rarely, if ever, do the decisions made on Fern St. benefit anyone but their own greedy selves.

    • Why is pointing out what the EIRs say about the Walmart and Target developments childish? I am glad someone pointed it out. I heard that those projects were going to cause a lot of pollution but apparently not. More pollution than the power plant but since the power plant is harmless so why wouldn’t these shopping centers be harmless?

    • Adam Chant. Don’t you get dizzy spinning things like you do? It’s like listening to Parris or Crist.

      • That’s because we ARE listening to Parris & Crist every time this paid blogger posts their talking points.

  7. Finally Mayor Ledford admited this is a Antelope Valley Project!

    Which it is, and it should be voted on by the people of all Antelope Valley Citizens that will be impacted. This is our lives our children lives, our desert, our skies, our water, our livelihood are surroundings.

    It time for an AV electoin of the people!!!! No a vote of self interest men. Help and get it on the ballot!

  8. I like that picture at the top. It shows the hundreds of homes nearby affected by this. Squirrels, rabbits, wild dogs, coyotes, birds they all count right?

    Will somebody please fix all the potholes on Ave M.

    • NAH UH you guys have enough stores give it to the Eastside!!! Real talk though I heard that the property on the Northeast corner of Pearblossom and Fort Tejon is owned by Costco, though I cant back it up.

  11. Breaking news people a air plane from Palmdale gives off more Pollution taking off one time than 25 cars will give off in there life time ,so whats the big deal

    • I wonder how much pollution comes from that Eye in the Sky flying so many hours a day over the City of Wrecksville…

      • Actually a Lycoming O-360 has a BSFC of around 0.42 lb/hp/hr depending on the configuration and that is on par with any 180 HP piston driven gasoline engine. A diesel engine would be more efficient at around 0.35 lb/hp/hr, but the results are all relative since they are all similar sized engines.
        BSFC is basically the efficiency of the motor based on fuel consumption vs the power produced. The lower the number the more efficient the motor.
        BSFC is not a static number and actually changes over the RPM range of an engine and it’s to be noted that aircraft engines operate in a very narrow RPM range compared to automotive engines. With an automotive engine it’s the extremes of the RPM and power range that really produces the most pollution and that’s exactly where they operate a good majority of the time.
        So while it’s difficult to quantify here the exact pollution produced by a Cessna 172 it’s much less than a single car operating for the same number of hours on the ground just due to the limited load conditions it experiences over the duration of a flight.

        • Adam Chant, why aren’t you complaining about the pollution from the proposed Walmart and Target stores which together is more than the worst case scenario for the Palmdale Power Plant?

          Are you ignoring the issue? Double standared, perhaps????

          • No my reply is in limbo waiting for approval.. I guess it was too long and used too many big words, charts and accurate points to get published without further review.

  12. Would somebody kick the dead argument the City of Lancaster is trying to promote to make sure it is dead. Marvin (the RAT) Crist will have a hard time talking himself out of this whopper.

    • Doc, I can’t wait to hear Parris’s and Crist’s response to this information. It should be fun.